New transmission for the track monster

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5 years 8 months ago - 5 years 8 months ago #400 by HeadBall
HeadBall created the topic: New transmission for the track monster
I have finally decided that the automatic just isn't going to cut it. It's just too sensitive to the fluid level and I haven't been able to get the 2-3 shift where I want it.

I had a Muncie trans laying around and a couple of Corvette diffs. Thanks to the help of a couple other Ballers, I figured out a way to mate the Muncie and the diff. See the pics below. That is a prototype adapter made of oak holding the two pieces together. The real adapter will be machined from a plate of aluminum.








The next challenge is figuring out the shifter. Does anyone have any experience with air shifters?

Ken

When two just won't do...
Last Edit: 5 years 8 months ago by HeadBall.

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5 years 8 months ago #402 by eficalibrator
eficalibrator replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Was Summit out of stock on the Hickory and Cedar adaptors?

Straight cut gears, dog rings, and flat foot shifting FTW!

Suppressive Fire Specialist

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5 years 8 months ago #410 by Duckstu
Duckstu replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Air shift an H-Pattern box? Has that even been done?

There are some great cable-shifters out there, I think I'df go with an upscale one of those.

And air shifter sounds like one more thing to go wrong at a track day and barf your weekend. Would you need to run an airpump to keep the bottle full? Or would you run a tank large enough to get through a 2-day weekend? Or have multiple large tanks pre-charged?

The air-shifters I've seen have always been run on vehicles with motorcycle transmissions. That one at Waterford last year for instance. But motorcycle transmissions are sequential,... and don't take much effort to shift, so the slave cylinder can be small and consume relatively little air per shift.

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5 years 8 months ago #412 by gzfqy6
gzfqy6 replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
I like thie pic of your Vette in the background..........cars make great shelves don't they. ;)

"no matter how late it is it's never as late as it is later on"
1984 Mazda RX7

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5 years 8 months ago - 5 years 8 months ago #413 by Scooter70
Scooter70 replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

2001 Corvette Z06
2005 Corvette Z51
Last Edit: 5 years 8 months ago by Scooter70.

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5 years 8 months ago #414 by Duckstu
Duckstu replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

Scooter70 wrote:


When that comes out it's going to run about $20,000.

That might not fit Ken's budget track monster theme.
.

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5 years 8 months ago - 5 years 8 months ago #416 by Scooter70
Scooter70 replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

Duckstu wrote: When that comes out it's going to run about $20,000.

That might not fit Ken's budget track monster theme.
.


Nah. They're saying only $18k. There's an EMCO sequential out there already that runs about $25k but that's just beyond Ken's budget.

2001 Corvette Z06
2005 Corvette Z51
Last Edit: 5 years 8 months ago by Scooter70.

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5 years 8 months ago - 5 years 8 months ago #417 by Red06
Red06 replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

HeadBall wrote:
The next challenge is figuring out the shifter. Does anyone have any experience with air shifters?

Ken


The guy with the black tube frame & carbon fiber roller skate powered by a motor cycle engine had a C02 actuated shifter. He was using the sequential motor cycle gear box however.

Cool project Ken.

2004 Corvette Z06 - Torch Red
Last Edit: 5 years 8 months ago by Red06.

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5 years 8 months ago #418 by HeadBall
HeadBall replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

Duckstu wrote: Air shift an H-Pattern box? Has that even been done?

There are some great cable-shifters out there, I think I'df go with an upscale one of those.

And air shifter sounds like one more thing to go wrong at a track day and barf your weekend. Would you need to run an airpump to keep the bottle full? Or would you run a tank large enough to get through a 2-day weekend? Or have multiple large tanks pre-charged?

The air-shifters I've seen have always been run on vehicles with motorcycle transmissions. That one at Waterford last year for instance. But motorcycle transmissions are sequential,... and don't take much effort to shift, so the slave cylinder can be small and consume relatively little air per shift.


Stu,
There are several companies that do air shifters for H pattern boxes, including Liberty Gear in Taylor. I may very well end up with cables, but the possibilities with air or electric actuators are nice. Sequential type operation becomes available, and if I upgrade the internals to the trans, I believe I can get to clutchless and sequential. The opportunity to fail is also there, but I don't have the best track record of avoiding mechanical risk (think big ole turbo and automatic).

For an air supply, I would probably go with CO2 or nitrogen cylinders and just have a couple of them. I'm planning on putting a couple big ones in the trailer for filling tires and running pneumatic tools, so I could also rig up a filling station.

So far, the biggest obstacle for the air shifter is figuring out how to get neutral. From what I have read, the motorcycle shifters use a shorter pulse of air to get neutral, which is between first and second.

Ken

When two just won't do...

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5 years 8 months ago #419 by HeadBall
HeadBall replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

gzfqy6 wrote: I like thie pic of your Vette in the background..........cars make great shelves don't they. ;)


It's sad, I know. I have pledged to fix the Vette when the weather warms up. It needs a diff rebuild at the least to be road worthy.

When two just won't do...

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5 years 8 months ago #420 by HeadBall
HeadBall replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

Scooter70 wrote:

Duckstu wrote: When that comes out it's going to run about $20,000.

That might not fit Ken's budget track monster theme.
.


Nah. They're saying only $18k. There's an EMCO sequential out there already that runs about $25k but that's just beyond Ken's budget.


I learned long ago to NOT have a racing budget. There is no sense in lying to myself.

When two just won't do...

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5 years 8 months ago #424 by Scooter70
Scooter70 replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

HeadBall wrote:

gzfqy6 wrote: I like thie pic of your Vette in the background..........cars make great shelves don't they. ;)


It's sad, I know. I have pledged to fix the Vette when the weather warms up. It needs a diff rebuild at the least to be road worthy.


Mine is sick of being a shelving unit so it's probably going on eBay in the spring.

Is it really easier to rig up the Muncie verses just using the C5 trans that was meant to go back there? I'm not too familiar with how the C5 shifter works but I would think that you would be able to shorten it to work even without the torque tube.

2001 Corvette Z06
2005 Corvette Z51

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5 years 8 months ago #425 by HeadBall
HeadBall replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Matt
The shifter rod on the Vette trans comes out the front and would run into the engine. Somebody has done it but they haven't revealed how. I haven't figured it out.

Ken

When two just won't do...

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5 years 8 months ago #426 by eficalibrator
eficalibrator replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
If you need a contact at Tremec to learn more about how the T56 shift mechanism works, I can hook you up. The guy who shot the photos for my first book works at their Plymouth office.

Suppressive Fire Specialist

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5 years 8 months ago #427 by bames
bames replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
How much torque does it take to move the fork arm? I can see a relativley easy way to actuate the arms with a couple of stepper motors, just not sure what size would be needed. This would allow you to set a midpoint position for Neutral. For air actuation, the neutral fork position seems difficult. I suppose you could use microswitches to determine which detent the fork levers are in, and use that to control when to depressurize the actuator.

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5 years 8 months ago #430 by sig11
sig11 replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
^^ That sounds like a fun project. :)

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5 years 8 months ago #432 by Duckstu
Duckstu replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
I'd just hate to see Ken tow the monster to 9 track days before getting an air system sorted out. (Ken's had enough of that already)

If he does a 2-cable system,... it will be dead reliable, maintenance free, cost nothing to run once installed, and function right the very first lap.

Any air system will be a constant technical challenge. Getting the pulses right for neutral, regulating air pressure so it operates the same at any tank pressure (fairly simple really), figuring how to account for the change in shift-effort as the trans gets hot,... tanks getting low,.. leaks,.. deciding if you need to change bottles before each session, getting them refilled (1,500 + psi isn't something you refill at the track) finding a good place to mount a large bottle (nitrous tank size probably)

Paddle shift systems work fine on sequential boxes. Trying one on an H-Pattern box seems like a recipe for a migraine. A fun challenge yes,... but when you can't really test drive it until you get to the track,... you end up blowing a lot of track days getting it sorted out. Sometimes the best system for the track is the simplest one that works all the time.

Anyway,... that's my $5.00 (inflation).

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5 years 8 months ago #433 by HeadBall
HeadBall replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

Duckstu wrote: I'd just hate to see Ken tow the monster to 9 track days before getting an air system sorted out. (Ken's had enough of that already)

If he does a 2-cable system,... it will be dead reliable, maintenance free, cost nothing to run once installed, and function right the very first lap.

Any air system will be a constant technical challenge. Getting the pulses right for neutral, regulating air pressure so it operates the same at any tank pressure (fairly simple really), figuring how to account for the change in shift-effort as the trans gets hot,... tanks getting low,.. leaks,.. deciding if you need to change bottles before each session, getting them refilled (1,500 + psi isn't something you refill at the track) finding a good place to mount a large bottle (nitrous tank size probably)

Paddle shift systems work fine on sequential boxes. Trying one on an H-Pattern box seems like a recipe for a migraine. A fun challenge yes,... but when you can't really test drive it until you get to the track,... you end up blowing a lot of track days getting it sorted out. Sometimes the best system for the track is the simplest one that works all the time.

Anyway,... that's my $5.00 (inflation).


While I pretty much agree with everything you said Stu, I find it a little ironic coming from the guy who's pumping 800PSI of boost through a Subaru. :P

I will probably go with cables to get started and then start working on a number of upgrades for the transmission from a lightweight clutch assembly to a real race gearbox like the Tex of Jerico. I think the air shifter would work well with a real clutchless box.

Ken

When two just won't do...

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5 years 8 months ago #446 by HeadBall
HeadBall replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
I just placed an order with Summit for the hydraulic throwout bearing, pilot bearing, and associated plumbing. Making progress.

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5 years 8 months ago #448 by StanIROCZ
StanIROCZ replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Make sure you have a pedal stop for the hydraulic throw out bearing, no matter what the mfg might tell you (I learned the hard way). You going with a Quartermaster or Tilton clutch?

What about extending the shift arms on the trans downward and making a mechanical linkage that mimics the original but runs along side the engine oil pan. Once in front of the engine you will have to correct your linkage ratios to match that of the shifter. One way to do that would be to make the same length/design arms that you had on the trans but put them to a new pivot. Then another linkage to the shifter... Simple, right :)

I know front wheel drive cars use cable to shift but it just seams weak and flimsy. Can that type of cable be purchased in generic form?

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5 years 8 months ago #456 by jp99gt
jp99gt replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

HeadBall wrote: I learned long ago to NOT have a racing budget. There is no sense in lying to myself.


Having just spent (mumble, mumble) bucks on an engine upgrade, that's my choice for quote of the year.

If I don't keep close on the numbers, I can honestly tell my wife "honey, I don't know how much all this car stuff has cost me". I think if I counted all the money from Mustang purchase through all the mods I would have spent enough for a brand new Z06 :blink: But I don't want to know.

Ken, just make sure a bottle is well protected in a crash. Or point a nozzle out the back end and and install a dump valve with a "push to pass" button on the dash. Can't duplicate that with a cable shifter.

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5 years 7 months ago #462 by TopHeavy
TopHeavy replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
If only we knew of a fellow 3-Baller that works for a push-pull cable manufacturer. :whistle:

:cough: Jay :cough:

If you go with an "air" shifter, I would go with CO2. It works kinda like LPG in that it maintains the same tank pressure right up to when it is empty, or close to it.

Stay In It!

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5 years 7 months ago #511 by HeadBall
HeadBall replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Thanks to a few more Ballers, I have now replaced the oak adapter with aluminum. In the pictures below you can see how nicely the adapter fits around the trans output shaft. As soon as my McMaster Carr order gets here, I can fully bolt the trans and diff together. Thanks Austin and Nate for the machining help.










When two just won't do...

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5 years 7 months ago #512 by StanIROCZ
StanIROCZ replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Glad we could help ken. You got a cool project here.

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5 years 6 months ago #521 by AddictedtoTrack
AddictedtoTrack replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
:cheer: Looks very cool. Can't wait to get a ride in the new and improved track monster

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5 years 6 months ago #522 by bames
bames replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Looking good. Can't wait to see this thing back in action.

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5 years 6 months ago #529 by HeadBall
HeadBall replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
This weekend I was able to start making the transmission side cable bracket. I need the cables before I can finish it. They should be at my house tomorrow. I also removed the old automatic shifter and starting mounting the new manual shifter. It's in place and needs to be welded in.

I also started the process of pulling the current trans out of the car. The wing and mount, two crossmembers, and exhaust are all off.

In addition to that, I have been ordering the necessary hardware to make it all work. With a three day weekend coming up, I should be able to make a lot of progress.

Ken

When two just won't do...

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5 years 6 months ago #530 by jaymsu
jaymsu replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

TopHeavy wrote: If only we knew of a fellow 3-Baller that works for a push-pull cable manufacturer. :whistle:

:cough: Jay :cough:

If you go with an "air" shifter, I would go with CO2. It works kinda like LPG in that it maintains the same tank pressure right up to when it is empty, or close to it.


Just saw this thread for the first time. (me technically challenged guy... too much technical terms... headache...)
I don't know much about Air shift, but if Ken wants to go Cable route, I can most definitely help. (especially he's planning to toast 2-3 cables per track days like he did last time)
I'm not gonna gold plate the end fitting or use titanium inner wire, but I can have several cables built for him, utilizing our common components, to suit his needs.

Ken,,, Cable is good... ;)

2006 Corvette w/ Z51 package: TOY4JAY III
2007 Corvette Z06 (550whp monster): TOY4JAY II
2002 'almost' stock Corvette coupe: TOY4JAY I

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5 years 6 months ago #531 by jaymsu
jaymsu replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

HeadBall wrote: This weekend I was able to start making the transmission side cable bracket. I need the cables before I can finish it. They should be at my house tomorrow. I also removed the old automatic shifter and starting mounting the new manual shifter. It's in place and needs to be welded in.


So you ordered cables, eh? You could've just come to my office and pick one up... :huh:

2006 Corvette w/ Z51 package: TOY4JAY III
2007 Corvette Z06 (550whp monster): TOY4JAY II
2002 'almost' stock Corvette coupe: TOY4JAY I

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5 years 6 months ago #536 by HeadBall
HeadBall replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster

jaymsu wrote:

HeadBall wrote: This weekend I was able to start making the transmission side cable bracket. I need the cables before I can finish it. They should be at my house tomorrow. I also removed the old automatic shifter and starting mounting the new manual shifter. It's in place and needs to be welded in.


So you ordered cables, eh? You could've just come to my office and pick one up... :huh:


Jay
I may still end up coming to you. I am routing these away from the exhaust, so they shouldn't melt, but I'm not sure how stiff they will be.

Ken

When two just won't do...

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5 years 6 months ago #537 by Duckstu
Duckstu replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Cable length probably doesn't make much difference. The key is to keep the bends shallow. Big sweepers, away from the enhaust,.. and don't wory about the length. The cable shifters Ive used that are done that way rival directly connected ones.

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5 years 6 months ago #538 by jaymsu
jaymsu replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Ken, come to my office, so we can talk about your needed cable.
- I need to understand the needed total length and cable stroke. Call me anytime so we can schedule your visit.

I'm flying out to Rochester tomorrow to pick up my new baby!!! :woohoo:

2006 Corvette w/ Z51 package: TOY4JAY III
2007 Corvette Z06 (550whp monster): TOY4JAY II
2002 'almost' stock Corvette coupe: TOY4JAY I

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5 years 6 months ago #539 by Scooter70
Scooter70 replied the topic: New transmission for the track monster
Rochester where... and we need details/pics asap.

2001 Corvette Z06
2005 Corvette Z51

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